BlinkX

I recently decided to rewatch the whole Brideshead series this past month. First of all, IMO this entire series was perfect; beautiful acting, period detail, superb writing. Jeremy Irons and Anthony Andrews in particular are gorgeous in this.

Watching it I couldn’t help but think, would anyone in 2021 be able to sit through a single episode of this? It’s far too literate for people weaned on recent period pieces like Downton Abbey and The Gilded Age etc.

Is it even possible for something to be both popular and sophisticated like this anymore?

I saw it last year for the first time. I sat through it just fine.

The BBC is planning a remake:

Isn’t the fact that you sat through it proof that people would be willing to sit through it in 2021? I watched it for the first time maybe 7 years ago and very much enjoyed it. Waugh is not particularly arcane or difficult to understand, even less so a television adaptation of Waugh featuring beautiful people and beautiful scenery. It’s 2021 and there are still people who read Proust, study all kinds of ridiculously obscure math and science disciplines, learn ancient and rarely-used languages, master the restoration of antique cars, and other difficult pursuits.

I loved this when I saw it as a teen. Maybe I’ll do a rewatch.

One of the big trends for teens now is “dark academia” / “old money.” I bet many kids with TikTok habits you’d find ridiculous were streaming Brideshead at the same time you were, OP.

I didn't like how it treated same-sex attraction as a switch you just turn off and on, like the book version of Maurice.

I was late to brideshead revisited too. It's superb.

Well, R5, considering it was illegal and Evelyn Waugh converted to Catholicism, there was never any other choice.

It's a beautiful show but by the last few episodes it gets boring as it turns into a dull diatribe about religion and Catholicism. Only the first half of the episodes that work well.

Interestingly, when they first started to cast the show, Andrews and Irons read their scripts and asked if they could switch roles -- Irons was supposed to play Flyte, Andrews Ryder. They did, and they were right -- it's hard to imagine either playing the other's part now.

I am currently re-watching this mini-series for the 3rd time and enjoying every minute of it. I am surprised at well it has aged.

^^^^^ "I am surprised at HOW well it has aged."

The movie is better. This is too long for me.

[quote]Evelyn Waugh converted to Catholicism

And after that, that nonsense winds up ruining everything he wrote.

I almost forgot how important this series was to my self-esteem and realizing what I was back then. I saw attractive young men who were 'that way'.

The 1981 series was brilliant . Lavish and lush and perfectly cast and played .

This has always been my favorite everything, but I was surprised that I also liked the newer movie version. It was much more explicit with the homosexuality aspect. The other commenter above is correct, the 1981 version is a little slow at the end with all the Catholicism stuff.

One of the 2 or 3 best things ever done for television. Far better than the film remake.

R2 I see your point but I find even my most intelligent acquaintances unable to sit through 2 hour films anymore. I don’t get how some people can watch a series for 6 hours at a time but cannot watch a 2 hour motion picture drama.

I tried to make my (female) boss watch it, but she immediately said it was "too eighties" and only made it through three episodes. I wonder what made it seem dated to her?

R18, it’s really not eighties at all, so I’m not sure where she got that from. It has nothing to do with the 1980’s .They are very true to the time period in which it takes place. It’s not a show that beats the audience over the heads with its points, there is a lot of dialogue and voiceover, and rewards patience. I don’t think these qualities resonate with many people anymore. Hence why I mentioned that I couldn’t imagine a show like this being both a cultural phenomenon (which it was) and so literate in todays world.

OP, humble-bragging is unattractive and tiresome.

While it may seem to you that new, intelligent, thoughtful, expansive television productions are lacking because of the stupidity of the audience (and writers and producers and funders...), times can change.

Look at R18: "I tried to make my (female) boss watch it." That kind of hectoring and dictatorial presumption just can't last.

R20. Have you seen Brideshead Revisited? If so, how do you think the writing holds up or compares to period pieces such as The Gilded Age or Downton Abbey?

And also, I don’t feel superior by speculating how a show like Brideshead would be received today.

659 minutes was the length of the 1981 version, equivalent to 11 or 12 episodes of a mini-series or one season of a Netflix, HBO, or other subscription series. People do watch in that format and seem especially drawn to narrative start to end stories, so it's not beyond the reach of what's already happening.

The subject matter is different, but then plenty of people watch bad period serial drama like Downton Abbey.

I watch it about every two years; I have it on DVD. I just get in the mood and then, of course, it's the most beautiful perfect thing ever filmed.

I loaned it once to an extremely Catholic friend and she thought Lady Marchmain was the heroine of it all! Can you imagine?

This thread alone demonstrates why this forum is awesome. I had no idea there were so many other people that realized that Brideshead revisited is probably the greatest television series of all time. It’s a study in sociology

Claire Bloom who played Lady Marchmain is still living.

Brideshead is one of my favorite books. I watched this series for the first time last year and was entranced. Anthony Andrews is sex on a stick. Irons has zero sex appeal save for his voice.

I could listen to Claire Bloom and her crisp, silky smooth diction all day.

I must have watched the mini-series 3 or 4 times now since it originally appeared on PBS. My most recent viewing was during the lockdown, and many years since a previous viewing. It truly is a masterpiece that stands the test of time. Tho for some reason, BritBox did edit out a few scenes here and there - and I’ve no idea why. For what it’s worth, the mini-series is far more faithful to the book than the movie which took all sorts of liberties.

I understand what the OP meant when questioning whether audiences today would have the patience to watch the series. It’s not so much the length of the mini-series in total that requires patience, it’s more about how the whole series is a 20 year narrative of the characters, and their lives vs each episode offering some “drama” that’s sorted in the 60 minutes.

There’s also the fact that BR isn’t whitewashed to make an aristocratic family so accepting, so egalitarian. Would Wilcox have offered unsolicited advice to Lady Julia? Would Lady Marchmain have allowed a chauffeur to marry one of her daughters? Would any of the Flytes engaged in commerce? In Julian Fellowes world all that flies because that allows him to indulge in his fantasy that he could have been “one of them” - but in BR, just as in real life, none of that would have happened in a titled, aristocratic family at that time.

It’s interesting when you read up on Evelyn Waugh, and where he drew inspiration for the characters in BR from some real life individuals. Also funny I think that he came to loathe BR - there was a letter I believe where he wrote to a friend how he just read it again and couldn’t believe how awful it was, and what could he have been thinking when he wrote it.

Some years ago, someone wrote, and had published, a sequel called “Brideshead Reclaimed” where it picks up after the War. Unfortunately, what the author and publisher failed to realise was that there was still a copyright on the original. There was a lawsuit, the holders of the copyright won, and all copies were pulped. But a few copies had already made it out to the public, so every once and a while you’ll find a copy for sale tho for upwards of $1000.

I was going by memory from the early 2000’s. I do remember the Waugh estate went after the author. I admit, I’m curious to how in this volume all the characters turn out, and now that it’s actually available, I may just pick it up.

R4 I looked up “dark academia" on google and it looks like a pile of codswallop.

What is 'dark' about it?

The score was beautiful..

[quote] Brideshead revisited is probably the greatest television series of all time. It’s a study in sociology.

One of the males (Charles Ryder) was a completely passive prat and a user. The other one (who's name I've forgotten) was a hopeless drunk.

"I didn't like how it treated same-sex attraction as a switch you just turn off and on, like the book version of Maurice."

We've done this before...

Same sex attractions were rather common with British boys/young men educated in pubic school system which largely were male only institutions. By time young man reached college age things may have gone on further at Cambridge or Oxford.

Some like fictional Anthony Blanche, Maurice Hall, Lord Risley, and Sebastian Flyte actually end up gay men. Others like Charles Ryder or Clive Durham go out of that "phase" to various extents and go about their lives.

Lord Marchmain's mistress Cara has both Sebastian's and Charles Ryder's numbers not long after meeting them. She tells Charles Ryder this "English" with their same sex love among young men is a nice thing, if it doesn't go on too long. Cara notes the Germans are same way, but of course French and Italians are not being Latin cultures.

Anthony Blanche also sees which way things are going, and tries to warn Charles Ryder. AB sees what Sebastian Flyte is likely to end up as, and that Charles Ryder is not his man.

Evelyn Waugh knew very well what he was writing about, as good number of set he ran with at university or otherwise knew were some of the great British homosexuals of the era. Good number "turned their same sex attraction on and off", by marrying and having children/family life; but still now and then having a taste for a man if not running off for weeks on end with one.

Keeping up appearances is not just a snappy title for television show, but was (and still is to some extent) code of conduct for British middle and above classes.

What people get up to behind closed doors is largely their own affair, it is when things are made public and result in scandal that society closes ranks. So gay men (and lesbians) often did have to turn their attractions on or off as situation warranted.

Everyone knew what Lord Beauchamp got up to; it was only after scandal broke he suffered harsh punishment

R33 That is SO long that I assume that you have cut and pasted it.

But, on second thoughts, perhaps a fan of the second best prose writer of the 20th century may be prone to slightly-loquacious prose.

I wrote that with my heart.

We've had several threads on DL about Brideshead Revisited.

One of series great achievements was taking actors already in their thirties (Jeremy Irons was about 33), and making them seem as if early twenties, then progress into middle age.

Early scenes with Charles and Sebastian make them appear as gorgeous youths not a day over 21.

Phoebe Nicholls morphs into young Cordelia Flyte, all jolly hockey sticks English schoolgirl barely 18.

True beauty of Brideshead Revisted in both book and 1981 television series is Roman Catholicism. It isn't obvious at first but slowly one realizes it's all about that fait, and ways it affects nearly everyone.

When Cordelia explains to Charles Ryder how Sebastian's life will go, it is one of best summing up of Catholicism.

In the end of course RC church scores another win in that even the agnostic Charles Ryder succumbs to the "mumbo-jumbo" that's been going on for two thousand years.

Sadly BBC, ITV nor anyone else will ever do series like Brideshead Revisited or Jewel in Crown ever again. There just isn't the sort of budget studios had back in 1980's for those sort of sweeping television series often based upon novels.

Downton Abbey was largely carried by huge infusions of cash via PBS (America), infusions from advertisers (Royal Caribbean), and deals struck to create a worldwide audience.

R37 I agree! I wish Jewel in the Crown was available for streaming!

It is interesting that the flaming out gay (Anthony Blanche) and the mistress/prostitutes (Cara) both slightly outside of polite society see things so clearly.

Both see the Flyte family for what each of them are; but also see that Charles Ryder doesn't have a clue and is getting in over his head.

It's been years since read the book, but believe comments from society in Brideshead Revisited had Bridey down as joining the church (becoming a priest). But since he was the eldest son that would have created a scandal (on top of Lord Marchmain bolting for Italy). So he becomes sort of an asexual prig who makes a bad marriage match.

1981 was a good year for Jeremy Irons. The man was sex on a stick and everywhere that year.

On television "Brideshead Revisited" and film "The French Lieutenant's Woman".

Yes, but they should have picked a better looking actor to play Sebastian. As it is, it just isn’t very convincing

‘I caught him’ (the thief) ‘with an unseen hook and an invisible line which is long enough to let him wander to the ends of the world and still to bring him back with a twitch upon the thread.’”

If you understand that passage from G. K. Chesterton's Father Brown stories, then you will understand each member of the Flyte family, and Charles Ryder as well.

When the actor playing Charles ended up more handsome than the one playing Sebastian, you know there’s been some miscasting, to put it mildly

They were supposed to play each other's role, but it was decided that they should switch.

[quote] Jewel in the Crown is such a self-lacerating anticolonialist piece of shit as a book, and TV show. The English brought the rule of law, massive infrastructure, including the railways to India, and it was all too terrible? Bitch please. India is still living off its legacy.

Brideshead Revisited revisited, 2016

[quote] ARCADIA AGAIN CHARLES STURRIDGE, JEREMY IRONS, DIANA QUICK, MICHAEL LINDSAY-HOGG, DEREK GRANGER, SIMON JONES, ANTHONY ANDREWS, PHOEBE NICHOLLS, JOHN GRILLO, JANE ASHER, AND NICKOLAS GRACE, PHOTOGRAPHED IN THE GREAT HALL OF CASTLE HOWARD, IN NORTH YORKSHIRE, ENGLAND.

R48: really? I didn’t know that, but it made sense

I think young Rupert Everett would have been ideal for Sebastian. Maybe even Julian Sand [although he might be a bit too butch for the effect Sebastian]

Anthony Andrews appears to have acted only sporadically.

I wonder whether that's his choice or whether he couldn't get cast.

In the 1978 BBC [italic] Romeo & Juliet [/italic] , Anthony Andrews did the best Mercutio I've ever seen, with a clear subtext that this inwardly conflicted Mercutio is in love with Romeo. Andrews is a talented, insightful, high-energy, risk-taking actor.

What are you talking about, r45/r47? Anthony Andrews was GORGEOUS at the beginning of the miniseries. Stunning, if you ask me.

The fact that about three episodes in his looks start spiraling downward into monstrosity is deliberate -- it's an external correlative representing Sebastian's progressive inner disintegration.

R38 you can also get Jewel in the Crown on Youtube

Looks like the original Brideshead Revisited is on there too

People underrate the film, but I thought they did a great job considering the time constraints. Ben Whishaw was a fine Sebastian. Matthew Goode was alright as Charles.

It seems I've read that Anthony Andrews married rich and didn't have to act anymore, if he didn't want to.

[quote]Matthew Goode was alright as Charles.

Matthew Goode thinks he's a much better actor than he actually is, and it comes across when he takes roles that he believes are below his talent for the paycheck - see: Downton Abbey and A Discovery of Witches.

Well, after 12 negative tests, i finally tested positive for Covid. This seems like a good thing to watch while I lay low the next 5-6 days. Never seen it. Like that everyone is gushing about it.

R61 We are gushing about it because we're remembering this show through the rose-coloured glasses of nostalgia.

You will be less likely to gush over it because 21st century people expect shows to move at a faster pace than what 20th century people found acceptable back in those days.

R8 I am sceptical about that ancient anecdote.

Jeremy Irons was perfect as this show's narrator because he has best the best speaking voice in the world since Sir Alec Guinness died.

Jeremy Irons then and now can recite out of the ABC's and give a good many women (and men) orgasms.

Anthony Andrews was a very attractive young man. Qu

Waugh fashioned Sebastian Flyte on Hugh Lygon, son of the 7th Earl of Beauchamp. Latter was inspiration for Lord Marchmain and Lady Marchmain being his wife Lady Lettice Grosvenor (Countess of Beauchamp). Lady Mary Lygon served as model for Lady Julie Flyte.

While Lord Marchmain was in Italy enjoying a self imposed exile, the 7th Earl of Beauchamp was driven out of England by scandal.

Rise and fall of Earl of Beauchamp deserves it's own media treatment.

^ He looks so unhappy in that picture.

The TV show used to be my older brother's, who's straight, absolute favorite. When I finally saw the show years after his gushing about it I started questioning his straightness but then again he's always been a bit of a snob so who knows.

I never personally liked the show or the movie that much. Maurice, on the other hand, is in my top 10 of best films ever made.

Although he's too old now, if they had done a remake of BR 25 years ago, Jack Davenport, as he was in The Talented Mr Ripley, would have been perfect as Charles Ryder. Although he has clearly diminished his speaking voice with smoking, it is still wonderful, eg as the narrator of the second season of Why Women Kill.

Charles Ryder was a passive man.

Jack Davenport is tremendous. Have long been a bit of a fan, especially of his television work including "Coupling" and "Breathless"

Charles Ryder was a lonely, sad man looking for something (or one) to give him fulfillment. Though he didn't know it at start, a ripe candidate for converting to Catholicism.

We know his mother went off to assist in the wars and so forth when he was young, and subsequently died. Then we meet the father, and after that slice of Charles Ryder's life you don't wonder why he didn't (or does) turn out gay. Can certainly see why he falls in love with (after a fashion) first with Lord Sebastian Flyte, then Marchmain clan, or at least their way of life.

Sebastian Flyte out of everyone else takes up with Charles Ryder because he senses the man is a needy and wanting sort, just like his teddy bear Aloysius. Sebastian wanted someone to take care of, and Charles Ryder fit the bill.

When Charles Ryder "grows up" or at least no longer needs Sebastian in that way (leaving college, studying and becoming an artist), latter is at loose odds and begins a downward spiral. Kirk, the nasty grifting German in his way needs someone to take care of him, and that becomes Sebastian's next project after (to quote Anthony Blanche) Charles Ryder "threw him over".

It's that "twitch upon a string" thing again isn't it? Through out his life one by one things Charles Ryder loves or at least needs are taken away from him (mother, friendship with Sebastian, wife, children, and finally Julia), leaving him with one place left to find solace, the RC church.

Maurice and Brideshead are quite different takes on homosexuality.

It is never made clear either in book or 1981 television miniseries that either Charles nor Sebastian are actually gay. Charles and Sebastian are "in love" way British young men who were products of pubic school then Eton or Oxford were, but there was no vice in their relationship. Will give you we are strongly lead to believe later on as Sebastian goes deeper down that rabbit hole things may have changed. HIs relationship with Kurt may or may not have been sexual. Charles Ryder insists to Bridey that no "vice" is taking place, but we're not sure he believes.

Maurice OTOH is a about a young man who knows in theory he's gay. His filtrations with Clive (tease that he was), spur Maurice to wanting more, but Clive won't hear of it, preferring to take the virtuous stance that sex would spoil their relationship. Of course after Lord Risely is is sent down for vice, well any chance Clive would engage in gay sex is just off the table.

When Scudder sees Maurice he's got the man's number, and is just the bloke to set things to right. Next morning Maurice is all but singing "Oh Sweet Mystery of Life At Last I've Found You..."

Books have stated that Sebastian Flyte is based on many people from Evelyn Waugh's life but I believe its none other than Hugh Lygon. Hugh is the gay son of gay William Lygon, the 7th Earl Beauchamp. William Lygon is Lord Marchmain who also is forced out of his country by his wife's brother the Duke of Westminster.

Author Paula Byrne, who wrote the book, Mad World: Evelyn Waugh and the Secrets of Bridehead wrote that Hugh Lygon is the one who threw up in Evelyn Waugh's first floor Oxford apartment and Hugh Lygon was the only one that carried a Teddy Bear. She also wrote that Evelyn Waugh and Hugh Lygon had sex on many occasions while at Oxford. Hugh did not have a drinking problem nor did he die from the drink.

Quite aside from being based on gay Hugh Lygon, Sebastian Flyte is most certainly gay, which has been defined for him as a sin with no possible redemption, and this belief is the cause of his downward spiral and disintegration.

Brideshead, the book and then the series, had a huge impact on me as it seems to have had on at least a few others in this thread. The series aired about the time I was finishing up with college, on a course of divergence from family, from childhood, from schools, from the place I was raised, from straight friends with whom I found increasingly less in common, from my own expectations.

Charles Ryder it seemed made a not altogether happy life of moving on from one thing, from one place, from one set of people to another, and it hit home for me, but I was also beginning to see past that to some happier conclusion not realized in Brideshead which concludes in a state of numbness. One of the aspects of Waugh's book which the series managed to improve upon, I thought, were the scenes with Ryder at home with his father's arch sense of humor. All of Gielgud's few scenes are wonderful in the series.

Tom Sturridge, star of The Sandman, inherited his resting bitchface from mother Phoebe Nicholls (Lady Cordelia in BR, Hugh Grant's character's wife in Maurice).

R76

You know nothing about the Catholic faith do you?

According to church doctrine merely being homosexual is not a sin, acting upon those desires (sexual acts with same sex) is a mortal sin. However up until moment of death redemption is possible long as "sinner" seeks forgiveness and receives absolution.

That was the whole story with Lord Marchmain dying, the priest. last rites and fighting between Charles Ryder, Julia, Bridey, and Cordelia.

Unless Lord Marchmain received absolution for his mortal sins, his soul was going right to hell. Bridey, Cordelia and Julia began to cloy about not having this happen. Charles Ryder totally not understanding depth of Julia's faith inserts himself into matters he ought not.

Mortal sin is at heart of Julia's dilemma about marrying Charles Ryder.

Bridey basically slaps Julia across face when he reminds her she is "living in sin" with Charles Ryder.

Julia burst into tears, had a good cry and shrugged it off, but it kept gnawing at her, and came to a head as her father lay dying.

Cordelia explains to Charles Ryder about how she believes Sebastian will end his days including confessing his sins, seeking forgiveness, being redeemed and receiving absolution just before he dies.

Yes, yes, R79, I do know all that. But from Sebastian's point of view, he was condemned because of who he fundamentally was (gay), a stain that could never be erased. I live in Italy part of the year and I know so many gay men who carry this sense of shame and worthlessness all their lives, because of the RC church. It's not at the top of their consciousness, but the majority are closeted or semi-closeted, and not even out to their families.

If someone wants to be ashamed or feel dirty about their homosexuality (in theory or actual practice), that's usually another matter dealing more with their mind.

Any Catholic who has been confirmed knows about mortal sin and how to avoid that horrible fate.

What you describe occurs with gays of all faiths or even agnostics. They make up a good part of the self-loathing queer set that go on about how "squalid" and "dirty" homosexuality is, and that they aren't worth human beings because of...

For record good number of Italian-American, or Latino-American "gays" (and I use that word loosely), are same. Which is one reason swore off most men from Latin based cultures long time ago. Hour or so of hot sex is not worth putting up with several more following of psychoanalysis.

James Wilby in that clip in R74 shows why he was perfectly cast as Maurice.

In moments after Scudder climbs into bed with him Maurice goes though shock, apprehension, disgust, lust, passion then ecstasy.

I greatly admire BR. I felt this series was perfectly cast -for all of the roles (large and small ) . It was filmed with meticulous detail and sensitivity to the era and the list world depicted.

Equally good looking in his prime as 7th Earl of Beauchamp was Hugh Grosvenor, 2nd Duke of Westminster.

Totally mad, but the most wealthy man in GB after the king.

One of the best insights into British society between the wars comes from the duke's third wife, Loelia, Duchess of Westminster who authored book " Grace and Favor"

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